Ok, so I play an online game(I know, Im a nerd) that Ive played for years.  I don't really play for the game anymore, but the people in the forums.  They are all about my age and have done the same as me, so its lots of fun.  People from around the world connecting there and just messing around basically.  Lots of fun.  Anyways, I usually try to avoid political conversations, but I just had to go and get involved.  So, its kind of like shooting fish in a barrel.  I wanted some opinions on how I am going about this.  Am I too aggressive?  Should I take a different approach?  Perhaps....that is what I want to know from you.

Here is the conversation.  I am only including the posts which actually include something.  I might end up adding to this as I go as well. 

GoS:
"obama

i want the iraq war to be over with within 16 months like he said. Mccain wants to send more additional troops over their which might make me go back to the army because i'm in the army reserve. i probally won't go back but i don't want it to go on even longer. if Mccain continues the war and passes down to another republican president next election or in 8 years, that person might make even more people go. also i might not have to do as much annual training like i did back in the spring if obama is elected. With the war over their would be less taxes hopefully. i also would rather have democrats be in power because the stock market crashing was because of george bush and a democrat could fix it.

note: i'm not that educated about the election so i might be wrong so i'm not voteing but i want barrock obama to win, plus rhode island got only 3 electoral vote so it doesn't really matter"

ME(CK):
GoS...do you know when he said the 16 months comment? Over 16 months ago. You would rather we leave and they die in vain, than to get the job done right now.

"With the war over their would be less taxes hopefully. i also would rather have democrats be in power because the stock market crashing was because of george bush and a democrat could fix it."

Ok...I think you should educate yourself before voting. Every vote counts

Lower taxes? If you can name me that last democrat president that lowered taxes, lets hear it. Notice the 250k number keeps dropping. The other day Biden mentioned 200k. 200k for a business is not very much and they will pass the extra tax expenses onto the consumer. You will pay more for every product you buy when Obama raises business taxes and taxes on the rich. He will let the Bush tax cuts expire. He plans on raising the capital gains tax which will discourage investors and cause the stock market to really crash. The stock market crashed because of the housing crisis. The housing crisis was caused by the CRA bill that Clinton signed into effect in 95 before Republicans took control of congress. That CRA bill caused the housing bubble which burst a while back.

Obama wants to send 800 billion over to the UN for the "Global Poverty Act". Is your money worth that? We are trillions in debt, yet Obama wants to send taxpayer money over to the most corrupt organization on the planet.

The cap and trade that both McCain and Obama are for could really send us into another depression like that of the great depression. The hawley-smoot tariff that Hoover signed into effect raised tariffs and lost millions of American jobs since we couldn't sell our stuff overseas anymore. That will happen again. Other countries will not send their stuff here for lower prices anymore because of the tariffs, so you will be paying higher prices at the stores as well. Lower jobs and higher prices. Before the hawley-smoot tariff...unemployment was 9%, after it was 25%.

He talks about redistributing wealth. How has that turned out in any other country? Socialism is not working. Our country has risen to the top because of capitalism and competition. Our education system is faltering because there is no competition anymore. Teachers don't have to worry about losing their jobs. Schools don't have to worry about losing students if the school under performs. Give families a tax credit if they choose to go to private schools. That will give parents choices. Some say it will create a two tier system. I say I would rather have one higher class and one lower, than all lower class in on tier.

Healthcare: I look around the world at all the socialist healthcare programs. Sweden is rationing it because the costs were too high. It takes like 11 months for an MRI. Canadian patients looking for surgery come to America now since they wouldn't have to wait upwards of 6 months for a brain surgery when it is needed tomorrow. Fidel Castro came to America for his medical care, even though the top notch Cuban care was right there. Where is Michael Moore now? Germany is looking at the costs of healthcare and thinking about rationing healthcare as well.

Iraq: The war is on the upswing. I have a friend that just returned and he said the iraqis are taking care of most everything now. Why leave and have that all for not? All those deaths in vain? The time to leave will be soon no doubt, but why force it? Are you so concerned about leaving that you don't care what you leave behind? During Vietnam the general of their army wrote in his journal after the tet offensive that they were defeated as the tet did not get enough done. Then he said our media portraying doomsday on the US and it gave his troops hope. They knew that the media would drive us away and they just had to hold out. Would you like that to happen again in Iraq? We are about to bring them back to a stable country that would at the very least be neutral to us, and you would waste that? For what? Putting a time limit on leaving?

Obama followers are very deluded on what he wants to do with our economy. His policies will bring us into the next great depression.

Check this out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bg98BvqUvCc

Can you believe what she is saying?

As for McCain, I do not like him either. The illegal immigration plan by both of them is ridiculous. 13 million of the 47 or so not on healthcare in this country are illegals. They are putting hospitals out of business in the south because the ER must help anyone no matter what. The costs were too high when they weren't being paid though. They flood our education system with kids that do not know english and then it costs our schools time and money to teach them english, which drags down the other kids in the class. They have no alliegence to the American Flag, which you can find numerous videos of illegals waving it upside down, a sign of disgrace. They flood job markets, forcing people to either lose their jobs, or work for lower wages. They bring their kids here and get on the welfare system, which costs the taxpayers millions and billions of dollars.

You know that on Welfare and medicaid alone the US spent 1.3 trillion or something last year? The SS retirement is also botched as it never should have went into the general fund for our irresponsible corrupt politicians to spend. Now it has a bunch of IOU's in there and we are trillions in debt.

Gosh...I could go on...but educate yourself people!


I would also like to add, for the people thinking that the war is taking too long in rebuilding. Are we out of Germany yet? WW2 must be going on still. Or Japan? Or South Korea?

We have troops everywhere. I don't agree with that, but we do. Our troops are a stabilizing force in many places around the world. We will keep a presence in Iraq for years to come, but not at current levels. Petraeus has said that the time to leave with the majority of our forces is approaching anyways. Putting a time limit only gives hope to our enemies over there. As soon as we packed up, they would strike and Iraq would be in disarray. Get it done right or Vietnam killing fields will happening in 2009.

OGT:
lmao at everyone who is scared about where america is going, if you were that scared you shoulda voted in al gore not Bush, but to say a down to earth person like obama would ruin your country is just rediculous, if you want the next 4 years to be like the last 8, then go and vote in mccain, and odds are he will just make things worse for you all.. if you want things to be somewhat like they were in the 90's, you know when clinton was president, where he was actually making a surplus then vote obama in, because the fact of the matter is that the Democrates are there for the people where the republics are only there for the rich.

To say obama will do a bad job and ruin your country even worse is just sad to hear from americans, your right when you say he lacks experience, but his senate would make up for that with his VP biden, and clinton and the rest of the democrates there to help him.. this post is just sad reading your responses.

It seems to me the rest of the world knows who should be voted in except for the american people.. wheres the ring wing american who is going to say obama is a terrorist? If I was american I would be more prone to let someone like obama try rather then puting lipstick on a pig by voting in mccain.

ME(CK):
OGT, I notice you went through that whole post and didn't mention one policy. Not one that Bush did wrong. Not one. Yet you claim he caused our economic crisis? Please bud...just name some. I have, you haven't.

Obama down to earth? makes me laugh. So you are saying that we should vote on feelings? Not on policy? I can see your using lots of logic there.

I personally feel this election will be a landslide win for McCain. The bradley effect will speak on Nov 4th. The hillary supporters will make their voices heard. The biased MSM will get theirs handed to them and will lose all credibility. I can't wait.

GoS:

i just don't want to go back to iraq but i like going back to training camp once a year and re uniteing with my army buddies and getting food for a month and that stuff. i'm not voteing but i want obama to win.

as a former corporal i can tell you that war is not fun. people get hurt or killed i have some friends who were wounded and have seen people die. i have seen people close to meget hurt. i have been with out food for 1 whole day then eating 2 meals a die for a week. its not fun. its miserable. their isn't alot of entertainment. your pretty much play cards 50 times a day for years. also at times we didn't know who was shooting at us and were to shoot back at. the army scars you and haunts you it is not fun. a vote for mccain is a vote for what i just described for many more people and many years of pain.

any more questions about the army just ask me.

i have been persauded to vote for obama now after reading these posts relizing that as a u.s citezen i have 1 vote every 4 years and im going to use it. also i see now that some of u want obama to win even though u not american so i am voteing for him for all of the people who cannot vote

Me(CK): This is to OGT:
"because the fact of the matter is that the Democrates are there for the people where the republics are only there for the rich. "

Its hard to say how false that is.

If you can name some policies the democrats have put into place that have improved life for the poor, lets hear of them as well. Welfare sure hasn't, neither has social security. You can try to prove they do, but every single policy the democrats put into place hurts the poor and middle classes. Instead Bush gives the middle class tax cuts.

ME(CK):
GoS, and really Obama will not pull out immediately. Its a great campaign slogan that he will, but he won't. When he becomes president (if he does) he will be informed by different intelligence on what is going on around the world. He will then have to drop into reality and use common sense. Common sense is not to repeat Vietnam again which would result in people losing faith in the American word around the world.

I thank you for your service, but why would you want your friends sacrifices to be in vain? The iraqis are taking over the brunt of the fighting and my marine friend said he didn't even encounter hostiles on his last tour over. The time to leave in large numbers will be soon anyways.

I also find it kinda funny that you are voting for the international voice. I wonder if any Roman citizens voted on the voices from Carthage? Or if English ever voted on the voice of the French? Or Japanese on the voice of the Chinese. Vote for the candidate that you think will help America the most. Choosing to vote based on what our enemies want (Hamas endorsing Obama) is foolish. If you really feel yourself that Obama is best, then by all means, but don't do it for the international voice.

Terror:
You wear me out CK. I just can't wade through all that you post, but in the sampling I chose, it is quite evident that you assume that every weakness that Obama has is God's honest truth and every strength is a lie. If you can't make an argument against him, you make an argument against his party.

If you used all the energy to dismantle McCain/Palin, I'm sure you could do an out standing job. I know it is against conservative policy to maintain a positive attitude, but you should try it some time. it's kinda nice.

Like so many conservatives, you have no vision for anything that hasn't been done before. Conservatism has a place when effective strategies still work, but the world changes. It takes a progressive to find new strategies to solve new problems.

My biggest issue at this point is the war. It is bleeding us dry. Do I want all those soldiers to die for naught? No. Builld me a time machine and I would do what I could to keep us out of Iraq. We'd be better off with Sadam Hussein in power doing God knows what to people that, for the most part, are not our concern.

Since you probably don't have a time machine, I will select the lesser of evils. I choose for every soldier who has already died to have done so for naught. This is to safeguard an unknown number of soldiers that are still alive and well. End the war. It was never a winning proposition.

No one is perfect, and believe me, living in North Carolina which is a battleground, I get a mailbox full of crap on Obama. I get stuff for Obama and stuff against Obama. I don't think I ever got anything on the positive attributes of McCain. I guess he doesn't have much to brag about.

John McCain is a negative and mean SOB. Obama is far from perfect, but I can live with his flaws and while he will make mistakes, he is not a stupid man and he will learn very quickly on the job. His growth during this campaign has shown me that.

Obama for president. That is all.

GoS:

they may have died in vain but it's george bush and the republicans who sent our troops to iraq and got them injured. it is the republicans fault that the troops in iraq are being killed and injured. it is george bush's fault for the scars on my legs and side and every time i look at the scars i think of all those people in iraq getting killed because of george bush.

for some reason when i look at the scars i can feel the pain of the thousands of troops that were killed

ME(CK):
Hehe Terror...conservative policy against positive attitude? Against trying things that haven't been tried...such as...socialism? Its been tried. Everything Obama says, has been tried actually. Name some that haven't. The only thing I can think of is his energy policy, which the republicans encompass his anyways.


I notice you didn't mention one policy of Obamas that was good. Figures. Tell me I must do it for McCain and then fail to do it yourself.

I don't like McCain. I have done enough against him on other blogs.

Im actually thinking: would I rather like McCain or Obama?

McCain will slowly bleed us dry and we will continue on to socialism. Each passing election will slowly move left.

Obama will put it on us full thrust and the people will reject him for it. We will have a major conservative movement, much like Reagan brought and we will be more conservative in the end. Remember Jimmy Carter. Remember his policies? Carbon copy of Obama. Notice how they failed us.

I labeled things in my post about McCain that I do not like. Perhaps you could take off your blinders and do some logical thinking.

I also love how you liberals attribute a good campaign to running a country. If that is all it takes, I think my dog could be a better president than Obama. You know...I was a good captain on my hockey team, perhaps I would make a good president? I would bet that my dog would get 40% vote if he ran democrat. The amount of uninformed voters voting democrat astounds me.

I was doing some math the other day. 38% of people do not pay taxes in the form of income. That is a fact and you can look it up. I am willing to bet that 90% of welfare recipients vote democrat. All for taking from me and giving to them for sitting on their lazy asses. Averaging 50% for each democrat and republican. If say 80% of those non-taxpayers vote democrat, and Im willing to be its higher, then that would leave about 30% voting for democrats. Making 60% of the democrat vote people who don't pay taxes. Only looking for the handout.

And we wonder why our country is going bankrupt.

The politicians have begun to find if they just promise free money to the people, they will get elected. The democrats are gaining power by doing so. Our country will go bankrupt as this happens.

ME(CK): To GoS:
"they may have died in vain but it's george bush and the republicans who sent our troops to iraq and got them injured. it is the republicans fault that the troops in iraq are being killed and injured. it is george bush's fault for the scars on my legs and side and every time i look at the scars i think of all those people in iraq getting killed because of george bush."

have you ever stopped to look at the vote to go into Iraq? 77-23 passing through the senate. He did not get us into this war alone. No matter how much MSM has tried to prove otherwise. The senate had the same intel as Bush and voted FOR the bill to pass.

Are all the democrats in the senate idiots? Bush duped them all? I thought you liberals always call him stupid? Did Hillary really vote on the Iraq bill not knowing what it was? How often can they claim ignorance? It gets old that you liberals keep using the same argument, though it has been disproven on many accounts.

You cannot go back in time GoS, as terror pointed out for us. What happened in the past is exactly that, the past and hindsight is 20/20. You have two options.

Vote to finish the war and your friends don't sacrifice in vain, or you can vote to have their sacrifices in vain. Voting for not going into the war in the first place will not remove anything. It will only pave the way for us to set things right later with thousands of more deaths.

I wonder why military enlistments are at an all time high? We have brave men and women who WANT to finish this war. No person is forcing anyone to enlist. Our army is 100% volunteer and I am greatly thankful that we have people in this country willing to sacrifice. Why is the military supporting McCain over Obama? Or Bush over Kerry?

Snarf:
Look at our current deficit. We didn't have that when Clinton was in office. Bush must have been doing something wrong. Oh yeah, cutting taxes and giving away money to raise his popularity above 30% even though we can't afford it. And if a 250k a year business is only netting 20k a year you are not going to get your taxes raised. It is 250k a year NET. If your business is making a 250k+ profit a year you should pay more taxes than some poor schmuck working for minimum wage. And considering all the loop holes and deductions and tax credits available 250k net a year means you are probably pulling down at least twice that or have a really bad accountant.

Palin annoys me to no end. She is everything that is wrong with the Republican party. Even her voice makes my head hurt. Alaska is a completely different world from the lower 48. It makes Texas look liberal. You've sent a guy to the senate for 40 years that was corrupt from day 1 and I really would not be surprised if he gets reelected on Tuesday even after getting convicted of 7 felonies last week.

On top of all of this McCain doesn't deserve to win. He has run such a bad campaign that it's made Kerry's look respectable. He has screwed up so badly that Palin is now trying to pull a Cheney and take over the lead role.


Everyone screaming that the sky is falling can stop worrying though. If the last 8 years has proven anything to me it's that no matter who wins this election we'll all survive.

ME(CK): To Snarf:
Snarf...on spending, yes Bush went over the top...a liberal trait about him that I do not like, but you forget congress sets budgets. Clinton had a very conservative congress. Plus, the no deficit under Clinton is a lie. He hide costs to make it look like we weren't running a deficit. How do you think the total debt went up? Our republican congress was kicked out by conservatives, not by your liberal votes. We kicked them out by not voting for them because they were spending too much.

Did you know that the Bush tax cuts increased the IRS revenue? Bet you didn't. Reagan's tax cuts did as well. Liberals never know those types of things. Instead its all about feeling. You don't like Palin. Oh boy...you don't like someone. I think you should start educating yourself on how things affect the economy, or how government has caused this current crisis with BAD regulations, not NO regulations. Voting on feelings is the stupidest strategy of voting I have ever heard of. That is the reason we are in the mess we are. We vote on feelings and we get stupid politicians for it. Who has the slicker tongue? Who can "connect" with me on a personal level. Its never who has the best policies. Its never HOW they are going to fix it, as long as they say they will fix it.

McCain corrupt? Like Biden with his 30+ years? Please. Then if you want corrupt, lets bring in Obama's group of friends. Thats corrupt. Im not even going to begin to name them, the list is too long. OR how about his illegal campaign contributions from foreigners? Or his failure to list all donors? Or how about the liberal senators that do have felons? What about killer Kennedy? Or cash Jefferson? They actually DID get reelected! Yet you accuse Republicans of being corrupt. Makes me laugh.

Tell me snarf, have you ever owned a business? Have you ever had your house on the line if your business failed? I know my dad had our house on the line when he started his business. Did the poor schmuck put his house on the line? Doubt it. Instead he decided not to go to college and benefit himself. He decided that the government can take care of him. He decided that he was going to be irresponsible and not work hard to get promoted. I made more than minimum wage in my first job. I already make $20 because I work hard to improve myself. Should I have to give that up because some moron won't try? Why succeed? Why try hard at all? You know what ruined the USSR? Everyone got paid the same. No incentive to work harder. Their efficiency dropped because of that. I see that coming with this "redistribution of wealth" crap. Ive already thought about moving out of the US because of our ridiculous tax codes. Ireland looks better than the US right now. Hong Kong looks even better. That is what every business is thinking. If they can get out, they are getting out. It will cost us millions of US jobs. If Im the owner of GM, Im already building a plant in China, or India. Plan ahead for the worst.

Unfortunately for you liberals, your "solutions" have already been tried and failed. All you can offer is a feel good attitude, much like Terror saying conservatives are only negative. See, we live in the real world where real choices have to be made. There are no leprechauns or unicorns. We take facts and stats, analyze them and make a logical decision.

Redistribution of wealth does not work
Socialized healthcare doesn't work
higher taxes slow down an economy
higher tariffs cost us jobs
welfare creates the lower class where they cannot escape
Social security cost the American taxpayers millions and billions

the list goes on about the failed policies the liberals offer. Using stats, not feel.

UPDATE!!!!
continuing on.

OGT:
universal health care doesn't work?

my god CK why bother argueing any policies with you if you can't accept the fact that every human on earth deserves Health care no matter their situation.

all i will say is stay the h*ll outa canada with a mind set like that.

and do you not realize that the war is costing hundreds of thousands a day just to have troops sitting in Iraq? you know what CK, your obviously from a wealthy family and your obviously a republican, and you obviously will not listen to reason as long as your a republican.

Liberals are not bad, infact they do more good for normal blue collard people then your party will ever do.

I honestly am not gonna argue anything with you since I am not american and in the end its not my choice to make, but don't complain when your living in a hut because mccain somehow got voted in.

I see america often, often enough to know that my canadian government does much more for the average person then any republican will ever do.

Its sad too that your country was supposibly founded on freedoms that every human deserves, but I have a feeling the colour of his skin helps you bias against his party and his amazing leadership, obama isn't where he is because hes an idiot or incompetant, infact if you were to look at his biography he had to surpass and many more obsticles then mccain ever had to and alot of the hardships obama endured and overcame were because of his background and where he came from.

Mccain is sooo senile that when asked "if you were in a plane over the pacific and something terrible was to happen, would you be ok with having Palin step up to do your job"

and his answer was something like his "I am not gonna die, why would you even say that?" yea good sh*t CK, real down to earth.

don't you find it even worse that mccain was all against bush and his policies up untill he found out he was running for president? then suddenly hes bushs royal *ss kisser? you don't find that weird? mccain is two faced and a liar, and he has no touch on todays world.

I feel your making a terrible choice just like alot of republicans, at this point in your life you should look at whats better for USA's global influence rather then your parties success which is obviously raining #1 on your list.

you want to talk policies? we can talk policies when mccain is ready to talk policies rather them scream terrorist at a black guy with a muslim background with a name that is sounds like osama.


thats all I have to say, goodluck on voting day.

and god I hope your country makes a good choice for once.

ME(CK):
haha!!! OGT...are you serious!!!

You just rambled on again, without one policy!!!! I cannot believe you actually took the time to write that whole thing in dismissal of my posts, without mentioning anything but rhetoric! And to add to that you called me a racist!!!

So because I disagree with Obama, I am a racist. Touching.

every human deserves healthcare? really? My gosh, no wonder Canada is a suburb of the US.

Then you say I care more about the republicans, than I do America. Im not even sure Im voting for McCain! Im probably going to vote Baldwin actually.

"we can talk policies when mccain is ready to talk policies rather them scream terrorist at a black guy with a muslim background with a name that is sounds like osama."

Can you name a time McCain has done that? Sorry, next.

From a wealthy family? My mom had to make all my clothes until I was in high school! She still works part-time! I am paying myself through college, without help from my parents. Same with my sister. My dad risked everything to start a business about 13 years ago. Because he actually succeeded, we should take money from him?

"infact if you were to look at his biography he had to surpass and many more obsticles then mccain ever had to and alot of the hardships obama endured and overcame were because of his background and where he came from."

Name some. Maybe how he got into Harvard. Can you tell us that story?

"you obviously will not listen to reason as long as your a republican."

what reasoning? I haven't seen any reasoning from any of the posts on the liberal side here. Not one policy. Not one reason to vote FOR Obama, other than he ran a good campaign.

"I see america often, often enough to know that my canadian government does much more for the average person then any republican will ever do."

Name some. Lets hear policies!!!


"Its sad too that your country was supposibly founded on freedoms that every human deserves"

Life, liberty and pursuit of happiness.
Funny I don't see healthcare listed. Nor welfare. Perhaps you could find them for me.

Perhaps you could show us where McCain is a Bush *ss kisser now? Or not?

Again, you liberals cannot refute a single thing that I have said thus far. Not a single thing. Its all about rhetoric with you guys. Are you guys that uneducated in politics and economics? I haven't even had to look anything up yet. That video I added above, I had on a different blog of mine. This isn't even a challenge! Will someone step forward and actually give me something to think about? Terror did the best job when we talked about Abortion on the sanct site. That is a moral argument though and hence will not have a correct answer in the eyes of some. Each and every policy we have discussed here though has a logical choice.

Healthcare cannot be given to all! Maybe I should find the stats of all the people who die waiting for surgery in Canada. Around Europe they are rationing it because it is bankrupting their country. Soon, instead of national healthcare, it will be no healthcare as the countries will be bankrupt and won't be able to help anyone.

With all the smart math people playing this game, I woulda thought some of you would use logic in your arguments instead of feelings. I guess I was wrong.

(Outside the conversation here.  I am getting a bit insulting, but he started to reach too far.  Calling me a racist?  I don't think so.)

OGT:
i never called you a racist, i said your probably bias due to that.

like i said I will talk policies when i hear one single policy from mccain, I've watched all the damn debates where mccain doesn't tell anything about policies, so why should I use my time to search up policies? one policy I heard barrack and bill clinton talk about was universal health care, your full of sh*t if you say all these people in canada die waiting for surgery, hell my mom went for surgery 6 months ago with 0 problems and no wait... in odd instances someone may die, I never said canada's health care system was perfect you misinterperting man, I said every person in your country SHOULD deserve to be able to go to the hospital, or clinic and get seen regardless of having benefits or not, thats a liberty we have in canada, and your country was founded on so much more then 3 f*cking words so stop being a dipsh*t about that.

the fact that you say noone deserves health care is adsurbed, people can do much more healthy then they will ever do sick. do you not see how much sense that makes? the profit that they can make from having a healthy population rather then a bunch of sick, whiney lazy sacks of sh*t because they can't afford to see a doctor about their back issues or whatever it may be?

like just sad that your saying people don't deserve that, I hope to god that you never get a disease like cancer or HIV where your forking out hundreds of thousands of dollars for kemo or meds that help you feel a bit normal.

the benefits out weigh the costs anyday of the week imo..

theres a policy, and theres me disputing its worth.

I am not saying for US to mimic Englands health care system or canada's, whom I must say is not in financial crisis and will never be in financial crisis, infact we have a shortage of doctors in this country, oh and did I add that canada has been making a 12 million surplus with univeral health care untill steven harper and his bush values came into office.

you want numbers goto an accountant, you want an arguement about something then here I am, I can't wait to see how you twist my every sentence this time around.

ME(CK):
Ok, this is the last time I will reply here. Your argument simply takes no stats or analyzing of any kind. I do not want this to get too heated either. Im a bit intense for a non-political site since I do educate myself on many of these issues on a daily basis.

Saying Im biased against a black is not calling me a racist? Thats a new one. *rolls eyes*


I talked policies!!! I did!!! And you cannot refute even one. The only one you have tried is healthcare. So why argue at all if you have nothing? McCain is not here talking policies, or not talking policies. I am here and I am owning this thread.

Healthcare:

First I will show you wait times in Canada:

http://www.cihi.ca/cihiweb/dispPage.jsp?cw_page=media_07mar2006_e

"Waiting to see a specialist

In 2005, 2.8 million Canadian adults said that they had visited a specialist for a new illness or condition. Half reported waiting four weeks or less, but some had much longer or shorter waits. Eighty-eight percent said that their visit took place within three months.

Following a specialist visit, some patients need further care. For example, new data from CIHI on hip and knee replacements tracked waits between the referral to a specialist and surgery for patients in 2005. On average, 30% of the total wait was spent waiting for an initial appointment with the orthopedic surgeon. Another 10% of the time went by before the decision was made to have surgery. The wait for surgery itself, sometimes several months, constituted on average about 60% of the total waiting time. Data reflect submissions from selected orthopedic surgeons in eight provinces."

http://www.statcan.ca/english/freepub/82-575-XIE/82-575-XIE2006002.htm

" Waiting for care remains the number one barrier to access

While most individuals who accessed a specialized service did not experience any difficulties – some did. (Table 2) Approximately 11% of those 15 years of age or older (2.8 million Canadians) visited a medical specialist in 2005 - among them, 19% reported that they faced difficulties accessing care. Approximately 6% (1.6 million) reported that they had non-emergency surgery - among them, 13% reported that they had difficulty accessing care. Similarly, 9% of the population 15 years and older (2.2 million Canadians) accessed selected diagnostic tests – among them, 13% reported difficulties accessing care.

Those who reported difficulties were asked about the types of barriers they faced. As in previous surveys, waiting too long for care was cited as the number one barrier among those who experienced difficulties. (Table 3) Among those who experienced difficulties accessing a specialist consultation, 68% indicated that waiting was the problem followed by 32% who indicated that they had difficulties getting an appointment.

Among those who had difficulties accessing non-emergency surgery, 66% indicated that it was because they had to wait too long. Over one in five individuals reporting difficulties indicated that they experienced difficulties getting an appointment, a rate similar to 2003 results.

Similarly, among those with difficulties accessing diagnostic tests such as an MRI or CT scan, 59% reported that they waited too long to get an appointment and 36% reported that they waited too long to get the test. The results are similar to those reported in 2003."

I will cease on that argument. As why should I over prove it? You haven't shown any stats yourself, only complain about McCain not talking policies. As if he was here.

"and your country was founded on so much more then 3 f*cking words so stop being a dipsh*t about that. "

umm...can you find healthcare in the constitution? Thought so.

"like just sad that your saying people don't deserve that, I hope to god that you never get a disease like cancer or HIV where your forking out hundreds of thousands of dollars for kemo or meds that help you feel a bit normal."

I will have healthcare. I am working hard to improve myself. I won't get HIV due to the choices I am making in my life. I make personal choices that benefit myself, instead of making choices to run myself into the ground. If I get cancer, I will have healthcare. Work hard and you will be rewarded.

"the profit that they can make from having a healthy population rather then a bunch of sick, whiney lazy sacks of sh*t because they can't afford to see a doctor about their back issues or whatever it may be?"

See this is where human nature blows socialism out of the water. If you don't have to work for anything and it is all given to you...what will you do? Not work of course. If you don't work and nothing is given to you...what will you do? Work of course. Again, read up on the USSR collapse. It should help you understanding human nature a bit more. If humans ran like robots, then yes, socialism would work. Unfortunately we do not. Human nature must be taken into account and all forms of "greater good" government, such as socialism and communism, fail to take that into account. Capitalism takes advantage of human nature and that is why the United States is the most wealthy nation on the planet. Rewarding hard work and success is the only way for anyone to succeed and work hard. To deny that is really...insane.

"infact we have a shortage of doctors in this country,"

ever wonder why you have a shortage of doctors? Perhaps the good doctors are coming to America where they can make more money? Competition works wonders my friend. All the best doctors in the world come to America because they can charge whatever price they like! If they charge too high though, they won't get any customers. Do you even have a clinic close to the MAYO clinic up there? Didn't think so. And you never will either, not with national healthcare. So long as our healthcare remains privatized, we will have the best doctors in the world in the United States.

Rationing of Healthcare and financial problems with healthcare:
http://www.frost.com/prod/servlet/cif-econ-insight.pag?docid=77082735

"Germany is heading towards a major healthcare financing reform to trim its healthcare expenditure. The healthcare insurance premium is schedule to increase by 0.5 percent from 2007. The premium hike is expected to generate $6.26 billion for the government. The current reforms are expected to exert additional burden on the employers thus forcing them to cut their workforce and increase unemployment in the long run."

http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/327/7412/414-g

"A few weeks ago, the German government presented a new health reform with the aim of rationalising health care and saving unnecessary costs (2 August, p 250) The reform might temporarily prevent the financial collapse of the health insurance companies, but experts and politicians agree that a major reconstruction of the entire German social security system is also needed. This would prevent a cost explosion in the closely linked areas of health care, special care for sick elderly people, and pension funds, which have to be shouldered by the younger generation. "

http://www.nationalcenter.org/NPA555_Sweden_Health_Care.html

"In the 1990s, Sweden set about reforming its health care system by introducing aspects of privatization. These reforms were limited, however, and the old problems with waiting lists and rising costs had re-emerged by the beginning of this decade."

Seems privatizing it helped a bit.


If you want to talk about how to solve this healthcare costs problem. Reduce frivolous lawsuits. The insurance for doctors, just because of crazy lawsuits, is very high. Lower their insurance costs and they will be able to lower their prices. Make the prosecutor pay for the lawsuit if they lose. It would make the patient rethink a frivolous lawsuit where they only want to scam the doctor.

Do not allow illegals to use the ER room like they do. Only citizens of the United States or those on a traveling visa/passport should have use of taxpayer dollars. I know this would be hard, but this would help solve the crisis as well. Preferably we would just work on getting rid of illegals in this country and we wouldn't have to enact this in any way. It would be nearly impossible to enact this in all reality.

You really gave only rhetoric in your response, yet again. Unless you can use a logical approach on HOW socialised healthcare is better both in accessibility and costs, your argument falls short.

OGT:
CK you don't understand, show me what you want but what I believe I believe, and your right people are greedy and thats just too bad I guess because they still make over 100 dollars an hour here..

our health care will not collaspe like those countries.. regardless vote for whoever not my country..


the only way to not have universal health care is to have companys mandatory health care plans that employees can buy into, thats the only other way.


even then that will not help poor families making minimum wage.


come to canada, I'll break your face and we'll see what you think of our system after that. lol

So, that last line was a poke at fun, not a threat.  I guess he believes what he believes, but IM the one unwilling to listen to reasoning. lol.  Its too bad that he doesn't understand economics in the slightest though.  Ah well, it was a losing battle to begin with.  I won the argument, but he will not concede.  I finally brought out the big guns with proof of universal healthcare failing, so he couldn't refute what I said.  At least he was able to make a joke at the end. hehe