Jay is continuing on "Dangers of Foreign Force and Influence"



Federalist Paper #3

The opening statement is somewhat ironic actually.

"IT IS not a new observation that the people of any country (if, like the Americans, intelligent and wellinformed) seldom adopt and steadily persevere for many years in an erroneous opinion respecting their interests."

I guess the American people were more intelligent and informed at that time than we are now?  Even with all the technology for communication purposes, we are less informed of our governments doings.  We have persevered, for decades, on many erroneous decisions.  Take affirmative action for example.  The facts are out there that blacks had a higher graduation rate, a higher success of marriage, were paid better on average and had higher employment, among other things, before affirmative action was put into place.  I will not research all that now, but the facts are out there and I have seen them.

Another example would be the CRA(Community Reinvestment Act).  Not only did it go on for decades, but we strengthened it along the way.  The minute Clinton changed the bill, housing inflation went through the roof.  Wouldn't that be a sign?  But no...we don't do anything.  Even after the fact I haven't heard of any talks of repealing the act. 

Are Americans really that ignorant?

"Among the many objects to which a wise and free people find it necessary to direct their attention, that of providing for their SAFETY seems to be the first."

Are there any liberals out there reading this?  SAFETY was listed as first by his conclusions.  What one thing has Bush done a spectacular job at doing?  SAFETY!!!

"The JUST causes of war, for the most part, arise either from violation of treaties or from direct violence."

So...where does Iraq fall in that?  Violation of treaties?  I would say UN sanctions would be much like a treaty, though admittedly Iraq would fall under the Monroe Doctrine more squarely.  Im not going to go into Iraq's involvement with terrorists as I believe they were involved, but that wouldn't fall under those two causes squarely anyways.

Im going to stray a moment here and bring in the Israel conflict.  Much of the world is condemning Israel for their offensive, but they were ATTACKED.  Not only is that squarely under a JUST cause for war, but would we sit back as Canada launched missles into New York?  Bring the situation home and thinking logically.  Common sense says that Israel has a right to defend itself, does it not?  There is no need for understanding any foreign affairs or politics.  This is a plain common sense problem and somehow the left doesn't understand. 

"Because when once an efficient national government is established, the best men in the country will not only consent to serve, but also will generally be appointed to manage it;"

This is one major problem we have today.  The smartest people do NOT want to get involved in serving for our government.  Instead we are ending up with a bunch of power hungry bimbos.  That spells disaster when you are talking decades of people who have no business being in those positions, making important decisions for our government.  The smartest people are becoming engineers, or scientists, and there is nothing wrong with that, but we have hardly any of them moving into government.  That is a problem.


The rest is more to the direct implications of not forming a union.  However beneficial it is to read it, I don't see the need to discuss those points here. 

I will mention that I saw Bush's last conference today and I was pretty happy with his demeanor.  I recommend that those reading this to watch it.  I found it at Bush Conference.  Try typing it into google though.  Try "Bush's last press conference" or final press conference and see what sites come up.  Conservatives are losing the online battle.  I got mainly liberal sites for a couple pages of google. 

I didn't like some of the policies he mentioned like immigration, but his overall attitude was "Im not taking s**t today", more or less.  I liked it and have been waiting for this for a long time.

"All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing" Edmund Burke

Federalist Paper #2

He states how we must form a single union instead of dividing ourselves into many "distinct confederacies".  This point is made many times throughout the federalist papers and I won't speak to it every time for that would get a bit repetitive on my part since it doesn't exactly coincide with what we are going through today.  I can only say that our country is becoming divided politically.  The hatred that each side has for the other is reaching highs and we must not let our country split into two separate nations.  This problem is not like that of the civil war though and we are not separated by regions, but by beliefs which scatter us anywhere and everywhere across the country.  If we were to have a civil war today it wouldn't be very possible to split into two nations.  Instead a civil war would probably prove near fatal and we would probably be doing something similar to 1776 after the conservatives cleanse our country of socialists.  I say it like that because nearly everyone who owns guns are conservative or at least republican.  If there was a war, it is pretty evident that conservatives would come out on top.

Moving on from that subject.

"a people descended from the same ancestors, speaking the same language, professing the same religion, attached to the same principles of government, very similar in their manners and customs"

Now, I wonder what religion he speaks of?  Or principles and customs?  Liberals speak as if we are not a nation founded upon the Christian religion.  They would have you believe that our founding fathers were not Christians.  They would have you believe that our Anglo-Saxon customs and principles of old are not why we are the most powerful nation on the planet.  A "tossed salad" is what they are looking for, not a melting pot.  Instead of coming to the United States and conforming to OUR customs(melting pot), we are forced to conform to THEIR customs(tossed salad).  Have you ever heard of such a thing in all of history?

"That body recommended certain measures to their constituents, and the event proved their wisdom; yet it is fresh in our memories how soon the press began to teem with pamphlets and weekly papers against those very measures."
"Many, indeed, were deceived and deluded, but the great majority of the people reasoned and decided judiciously; and happy they are in reflecting that they did so."

I can not help but notice that even at that point in time, the media was already causing trouble.  Today I believe the media is to blame for most of our problems.  I was on a cruise over new years and all I could get was international CNN.  I can see why the rest of the world hates us.  CNN covers about every negative angle on America it possibly can.  It takes every opportunity to create hatred for Israel.  The western world is in for a wakeup call when these Muslim radicals inflict a major act of terrorism upon our soil.  I believe it would be folly for them to do it now while we are still a powerful nation, since if they did set off, say a nuclear device, our rage would come down upon all of them until they are no more.  They are waiting it out until we are weaker.  Lets not get caught with our pants down. 

This federalist paper had more to do with creating a single union than anything else.  It did include the people trusting the decisions of their selected congress to stay a single union.  Reading these papers it is evident that Jay, Hamilton and Madison had a much better understanding of human nature and economics than those in power today.  I will get to that when they get to it though.

Thanks for reading and any comments are welcome.

"All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing" Edmund Burke

And so begins my series on the Federalist Papers.  I am going to attempt to do a paper a day, though admittedly that probably won't happen as college will start up in a couple weeks.  Ill try to go the first month though.  I plan on putting a link to the current paper to begin each post for you to read beforehand.  I will then write a short or long essay describing how it relates to today.  If that particular paper doesn't relate very much, it will just be good to read each paper anyways.  If it does relate my analysis will be slightly longer.  The main point of this is for us to decipher what the founding fathers had in mind for our country.  Did they want a government to coddle people at the expense of others?  Somehow I seem to doubt it, but lets find out from their own words, shall we?

One thing before starting.  Please read the 2nd Amendment.  This amendment is constantly under attack from the left because of how it is written.  At this time I have only read through about half of the Federalist papers, but as I read through them I noticed that once you read these papers, the 2nd amendment is easy to decipher.  The way they parse their sentences is consistent from the Federalist papers to the Constitution. 

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

I will not give my analysis now upon this subject.  As you read these papers you will see what I mean.  If you want my reasoning, I have written a previous post on the second amendment.

Federalist Paper #1:  Federalist Paper 1

It begins with a forward looking set of statements.  Is mankind able to create a good government when given the opportunity?  Some will resist because of personal loss of power, while others will want to split the union for personal gain.  However he dismisses using the nature of their arguments as a reason for him being correct.  Basically he says I will prove my reasoning instead of disproving why they are pushing for their agendas. 

Take notice of: "nothing could be more ill-judged than that intolerant spirit which has, at all times, characterized political parties" 

George Washington warned us of creating political parties on his leave from office.  Hamilton states here that political parties have intolerant spirits.  Wouldn't that be a negative influence?  Notice how that has affected the democrats as well as the republicans.  Lieberman stands up for the Iraq war and he gets thrown out.  Doesn't that just send the message of individual thinking to all our congressmen in DC as well as local governments.  Political parties only narrow our choices of good leaders in this country and it really has been one cause as to the corruption in DC.  When voting this November I couldn't help but think, "are these the best we could do?".  McCain and Obama?  Seriously...

"dangerous ambition more often lurks behind the specious mask of zeal for the rights of the people than under the forbidden appearance of zeal for the firmness and efficiency of government."

Notice what the democrats claim they are for at every turn?  Sounds so familiar doesn't it...

As he goes he states that he will give forth his reasoning for the new Constitution.  He will detail "advantages of that Union, the certain evils, and the probable dangers". 

Your thoughts are welcome.  Any analysis above my own is welcome as well.  I will add to this if an enlightened observation is made on a point that I missed. 

"All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing" Edmund Burke

"All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing" Edmund Burke

I think that quote must be a cornerstone on how we look to the future of America.  You all know why, so no need in explaining.  Do not stand idly by!  I'm going to be using this as my signature, just as a reminder. 

I guess congress has decided that the auto industry is not worth a bailout.  As do I, except I think the whole bailout business is wholly unneeded. 

Problems ailing the Auto Industry in America:
Unions
Gas
Government

Unions are killing the American automakers because of not just wages, but pensions and whatnot.  Here are a couple stats...a few years old, but this just lets you know that this problem has been ailing them for some time.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20060308.IBGM08/TPStory/?query=

Now take note of how much they are cutting these costs of workers that aren't even working and on healthcare!

"reduce the Detroit-based company's year-end 2006 pension liability by about $1.6-billion."
"GM earlier won $1-billion in annual health care cuts from union employees,"

Reduce by 1 billion and 1.6 billion?  How much are they spending?!  And we wonder why Japanese cars are like half the price of ours with the same quality.  Unions have suffocated the auto industry and now they are paying for it.  When the auto industry goes under, there will be no benefits going out.  Kind of like socialized health care if you ask me.  You want all this coverage through government mandated, and then it costs so much the government goes under and no one gets benefits, or at the very least they ration(read some previous posts from me for that story, it is long).  The auto industry cannot ration, so they are forced to go under.  There goes benefits for millions, on top of jobs lost for current workers.  Thank you unions.  There was a place and time for unions, and I firmly believe that time has passed.

Gas:  Prices went up and people consolidated.  Many American automakers make lots of their money on trucks.  Foreign cars already had a hold on the car business.  With higher gas prices, there goes their truck sales. 

Government:  The government taxes the hell out of these businesses.  I couldn't find exact numbers unfortunately, but our businesses are taxed much more heavily than say Japan's auto industry.  With lower taxes they can afford to lower their prices and make just as much as the companies here.  With that they have lower prices for the same quality and that is how they are selling more. 

Add those 3 up and you have a perfect storm.  Billions lost...jobs disappearing.  What is going to happen?  In general they will have to file bankruptcy and lets see how this pension stuff works out for them.  The only way they can compete in the future is to rid themselves of the unions that are strangling them.  Heck, honestly, if I were them, I would be outsourcing with the work environment here.  In an effort of nationalism though, for them to stay and work, unions must be taken out.

"All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing" Edmund Burke

Just a short tidbit today.  School is killing me, so just keep checking in, Ill try my best to put some substance up here and there and when I get out for the semester Ill put some good stuff up.

Obama has recently had his minions out telling everyone to lower their standards!  Don't let it phase you!  Hold him responsible for each and every lie he has promised!  Drill him on his tax cuts first and foremost!  We all knew that he would backtrack on the tax cuts, so now we must MUST hold him accountable for that!  Tax cuts is something that every person paying taxes will see and will pay attention to if brought up.  Some of his other issues may slip under the radar because people won't care about them, but taxes, everyone cares.  Tell everyone to take note of how much they paid under the Bush tax cuts.  Keep track of all different types of taxes you are paying!  From gas, to sales, to income, to capital gains, to property, etc etc.  Tell some liberals to keep track themselves so you can tell them "I told you so" later. hehe

Taxes will do damage to him beyond what he thinks.  Hold him to the 250k mark.  His campaign surrounded him giving those making less than 250k a tax break! 

There are many other issues that can be found at GunnyG's blog.  He will probably do a better job at explaining than myself.  Check it out here:

http://noliberalspin.blogtownhall.com/2008/11/21/team_obama_stacks_the_bullsqueeze_higher_and_higher!.thtml

We know that our conservative news sources are going to be holding his feet to the flame, so we must help them by turning up the torch.  They can only help us so much, and then we must pave our own path!  Time for hardball folks!

"All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing" Edmund Burke

I think everyone should at least watch this trailer of 'Obsession'.  We should all watch this movie and spread it to our friends!  It is a movie about Islam and the "holy war" we are in.  Take a gander and buy it or something if you like.



http://www.obsessionthemovie.com/clips-jihad.php

Ok, some idiot on GunnyG's blog has no idea why the fairness doctrine would hurt conservative radio.  Thought I would throw something up about it. 

First off, I would like to say I think the fairness doctrine is unconstitutional.  Unless I am mistaken, the radio is not owned or funded by the government, besides NPR.  So being it is a private business, why should the government be able to give a regulation without a valid reason?  They stop swearing for children listening...etc.  There is no valid reason for the fairness doctrine unless something of a harmful nature can be proven about the current state of things.  Is that posisble?  Hardly.  They would also have to prove that liberals do not have ample opportunity to getting themselves heard on the radio.  They have tried their hand at radio and failed, so clearly they cannot prove they didn't have a chance.  In conclusion, is there any reason at all that this is constitutional?  I believe that laws should have to prove their constitutionality rather than the other way around.  In fact, after the revolution that is bound to happen down the road not too far, I believe that should be part of the new constitution.  Put them on the defense right away, instead of proving in the negative. 

Next I have a bone to pick about it being about radio only.  Why is it not for TV? or Magazines?  Newspapers?  Of course....liberals need their outlets of information to remain untouched.  I forgot.  Other than that reason there is none other for the fairness doctrine to be bounded to the radio.  The radio is no different than television.  Radio station =  channel.  I think we need about 5 more Fox News channels to even the playing field.

Ok, so to the point.  How does the fairness doctrine hurt conservative radio?  This is a conceptual answer, just fyi.  I was a bit lazy to research facts, but this is basically common sense, so I felt it was ok for this subject.

Ex:

A conservative host makes $1000 per hour on the radio, for the radio station
A liberal host makes $50 per hour on the radio, for the station.

I am using those numbers because clearly conservative hosts attract many more viewers.  Liberals have had radio stations and they have failed miserably.  Conservative radio stations flourish and we have guys like Rush making $400 million.  Point proven?  I think so.

So you have a total of 50 prime time hours.

Pre-doctrine:
1000*50=$50,000

Post-doctrine:
1000*25 + 50*25 = $26,100 (I believe, did that in my head, so don't beat me up if its wrong)

Can anyone see why this would be a problem for conservative radio?  Many just choose to play music because Im betting they can make somewhere in the middle of those two. 

Conclusion?  One less conservative radio station.  Liberals get their views funded by conservatives.

Any questions? 

If you are a liberal and don't understand, perhaps you should go back and get your GED, this is pretty basic common sense.

Ok, so I know this is a political site, but as the elections just passed, I haven't a specific issue to write on.  When I have more time I plan to start a series on the Federalist Papers, but I am a bit busy for that.  I am a techy guy and as such, I get popular science each month.  I saw an article regarding this issue a few months back and found it a major breakthrough.  Then it was in this current months issue and thought it had to be much closer to being ready for humans.  This will also be good news for all you retired folks here at TH. ;)





Meet your new heart!  If you are needing a new one that is. 

So the summary is that, tested and perfected on rats, if you need a new heart they can take a heart from a dead donor body, strip it of cells and bring it back to life using your cells.  Pretty cool huh?  Think of the possibilities of what this could do.  People with failing hearts could get a new one at the end of the week instead of year.  This will also increase the average time a person lives after a heart transplant as the heart essentially is made for them, since it came back to life with their cells.  The body will then have a better chance of accepting the new organ. 

The entire story can be found here: http://www.popsci.com/bown/2008/product/recellularized-heart

Oh, and did I mention that it was invented at my home base U of Minnesota?  hehe

I have found the single thing about Obama that is a positive!

Backstory:  My sister is sitting in her AP Gov class and a friend of hers is talking to the teacher.  The teacher is very liberal btw, and kicked the kid out after the comment.

Anyways, so this is not my own, but I felt it needed to be put up.

We have George Washington on the $1 bill.

Abraham Lincoln on the $5 bill.

Alexander Hamilton on the $10 bill

Now we have a new guy for the food stamps!  Obama can be the face of the food stamps! haha

I know what your thinking...food stamps are on credit cards now, but that doesn't matter.  That is funny! haha

Well, Im a bit busy so I decided to put up something a little lighter.


http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/11/9/1573364/Timbaland (remix) - Its Too Late to apologize.mp3
I'm holding on your rope
Got me ten feet off the ground
And I'm hearing what you say
But I just can't make a sound
You tell me that you need me
Then you go and cut me down
But wait...
You tell me that you're sorry
Didn't think I'd turn around and say...
That it's too late to apologize, it's too late
I said it's too late to apologize, it's too late
I'd take another chance, take a fall, take a shot for you
And I need you like a heart needs a beat
(But that's nothing new)
Yeah yeah
I loved you with a fire red, now it's turning blue
And you say
"Sorry" like the angel, heaven let me think was you
But I'm afraid...
It's too late to apologize, it's too late
I said it's too late to apologize, it's too late
Woahooo woah
It's too late to apologize, it's too late
I said it's too late to apologize, it's too late
I said it's too late to apologize, yeahah
I said it's too late to apologize, yeahah
I'm holding on your rope
Got me ten feet off the ground...

Last night went as many conservatives could have hoped for and against what many others were praying for.  In my opinion, if you have not read BrianR's blog, check it out.  http://viewfromtheisland.blogtownhall.com/

His sentiment can be echoed around the conservative chamber to give us hope.  We need to regroup now and come back strong and loud.  The most important thing of all, we need to come back informed and ready to challenge.  Many/some conservatives do not know the underlying reasons for all they believe.  For that reason their arguments are very shallow and there are counters that until further research cannot be defied.  Getting a well rounded understanding on why the trickle down effect works, instead of just knowing it does or understanding how affirmative action hurt blacks instead of hearing it from another, will do wonders for the conservative base.  Right now, the liberals are louder than we and that is why they won the election.  They shouted from every mountain top lie after lie until over 50% of Americans believed it to be true.  We must now research the issues that they have to fervently twisted so we can battle them with facts onhand.  It is important to know that Bush's policies did not cause this crisis and why they did not for example.  On affirmative action one must know that blacks had a higher rate of employment before it was put into place, and they made more money.  Knowing the ins and outs of each policy is essential for conservatives to resurge with a force never seen before.  We need to make 1980 look like childs play.

Some things to assume:

Obama will falter. 

A conservative party will arise.

Liberals are uninformed.

There is no doubt in my mind that Obama will send us back to the Carter years.  We MUST take advantage of this!  Sitting idly by while he fails is the worst thing we could do.  The liberal media did not sit by and watch Bush make "mistakes".  They jumped on him at every chance they could and even when he did the right thing.  We are going to get more than our fair share of chances to bring his failures to light.  Conservatives are not known for playing hardball, but I believe for the good of the country, we must play ball here.  Liberals shout loud, so we must not only shout back, but destory their shouting with facts.  This goes back to why we must be informed.  If we shout, but we are not informed, we will not gain momentum.  We will have dropped to their level, however getting a conservative base requires more than shouting as we are much more skeptical and logical.  We must gain our troops by completely demolishing liberal attacks with facts.  If we make our voices heard, a conservative party will arise, whether it be the GOP or an "American Tradition Party".  We now have 2-4 years to inform our neighbors of the truth.  If each conservative can find one democrat and convert them, we win.  To convert anyone all issues are on the table and some are tougher than others.  Having a deep understanding on conservative values will make this like pie.  The liberal base is largely uninformed and we need to attack them for it.  Once Obama makes his first mistake, attack attack attack.  After it is clear he has failed as President, ask as many Obama voters why they voted for him.  That is the perfect time to convert someone.  They see their vote didn't work and are willing to "shop around". 

I cannot honestly sit here and say that I am well informed on all issues.  I know that everyone reading is not informed on ALL issues.  I believe I have a fairly well rounded set that I know a good deal about.  Constantly research the issues of the day.  Read about why the great depression was extended due to FDR.  Read about why we lost Vietnam.  Know why Jimmy Carter was a horrible president instead of taking our word for it.  Research this housing bubble and the Savings and Loan problems.  Keep a mental list on the failed democrat policies.  Social security, affirmative action, welfare(especially know why on this one, traps them in the lower class) etc...

If anyone has any sites that list conservative principles with reasons, let me know.  The best I have so far is
Conservatism 101
Courtesy of BrianR: http://joeolivaforpresident.org/
Avalon Project

The Avalon Project is from Yale law and has lots of documents to choose from.  The Federalist Papers and the Constitution are a must.  I have read the Articles of Confederation as well, to get what we have before the constitution.  The Declaration of Independence is also a must.  Good reading!

Have strength!  Tirelessly inform yourself and others!  Know that your information is accurate!  Know your enemy!  Find their possible counter arguments so you can counter it before they even make the suggestion!  Have faith!

Ok, so I play an online game(I know, Im a nerd) that Ive played for years.  I don't really play for the game anymore, but the people in the forums.  They are all about my age and have done the same as me, so its lots of fun.  People from around the world connecting there and just messing around basically.  Lots of fun.  Anyways, I usually try to avoid political conversations, but I just had to go and get involved.  So, its kind of like shooting fish in a barrel.  I wanted some opinions on how I am going about this.  Am I too aggressive?  Should I take a different approach?  Perhaps....that is what I want to know from you.

Here is the conversation.  I am only including the posts which actually include something.  I might end up adding to this as I go as well. 

GoS:
"obama

i want the iraq war to be over with within 16 months like he said. Mccain wants to send more additional troops over their which might make me go back to the army because i'm in the army reserve. i probally won't go back but i don't want it to go on even longer. if Mccain continues the war and passes down to another republican president next election or in 8 years, that person might make even more people go. also i might not have to do as much annual training like i did back in the spring if obama is elected. With the war over their would be less taxes hopefully. i also would rather have democrats be in power because the stock market crashing was because of george bush and a democrat could fix it.

note: i'm not that educated about the election so i might be wrong so i'm not voteing but i want barrock obama to win, plus rhode island got only 3 electoral vote so it doesn't really matter"

ME(CK):
GoS...do you know when he said the 16 months comment? Over 16 months ago. You would rather we leave and they die in vain, than to get the job done right now.

"With the war over their would be less taxes hopefully. i also would rather have democrats be in power because the stock market crashing was because of george bush and a democrat could fix it."

Ok...I think you should educate yourself before voting. Every vote counts

Lower taxes? If you can name me that last democrat president that lowered taxes, lets hear it. Notice the 250k number keeps dropping. The other day Biden mentioned 200k. 200k for a business is not very much and they will pass the extra tax expenses onto the consumer. You will pay more for every product you buy when Obama raises business taxes and taxes on the rich. He will let the Bush tax cuts expire. He plans on raising the capital gains tax which will discourage investors and cause the stock market to really crash. The stock market crashed because of the housing crisis. The housing crisis was caused by the CRA bill that Clinton signed into effect in 95 before Republicans took control of congress. That CRA bill caused the housing bubble which burst a while back.

Obama wants to send 800 billion over to the UN for the "Global Poverty Act". Is your money worth that? We are trillions in debt, yet Obama wants to send taxpayer money over to the most corrupt organization on the planet.

The cap and trade that both McCain and Obama are for could really send us into another depression like that of the great depression. The hawley-smoot tariff that Hoover signed into effect raised tariffs and lost millions of American jobs since we couldn't sell our stuff overseas anymore. That will happen again. Other countries will not send their stuff here for lower prices anymore because of the tariffs, so you will be paying higher prices at the stores as well. Lower jobs and higher prices. Before the hawley-smoot tariff...unemployment was 9%, after it was 25%.

He talks about redistributing wealth. How has that turned out in any other country? Socialism is not working. Our country has risen to the top because of capitalism and competition. Our education system is faltering because there is no competition anymore. Teachers don't have to worry about losing their jobs. Schools don't have to worry about losing students if the school under performs. Give families a tax credit if they choose to go to private schools. That will give parents choices. Some say it will create a two tier system. I say I would rather have one higher class and one lower, than all lower class in on tier.

Healthcare: I look around the world at all the socialist healthcare programs. Sweden is rationing it because the costs were too high. It takes like 11 months for an MRI. Canadian patients looking for surgery come to America now since they wouldn't have to wait upwards of 6 months for a brain surgery when it is needed tomorrow. Fidel Castro came to America for his medical care, even though the top notch Cuban care was right there. Where is Michael Moore now? Germany is looking at the costs of healthcare and thinking about rationing healthcare as well.

Iraq: The war is on the upswing. I have a friend that just returned and he said the iraqis are taking care of most everything now. Why leave and have that all for not? All those deaths in vain? The time to leave will be soon no doubt, but why force it? Are you so concerned about leaving that you don't care what you leave behind? During Vietnam the general of their army wrote in his journal after the tet offensive that they were defeated as the tet did not get enough done. Then he said our media portraying doomsday on the US and it gave his troops hope. They knew that the media would drive us away and they just had to hold out. Would you like that to happen again in Iraq? We are about to bring them back to a stable country that would at the very least be neutral to us, and you would waste that? For what? Putting a time limit on leaving?

Obama followers are very deluded on what he wants to do with our economy. His policies will bring us into the next great depression.

Check this out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bg98BvqUvCc

Can you believe what she is saying?

As for McCain, I do not like him either. The illegal immigration plan by both of them is ridiculous. 13 million of the 47 or so not on healthcare in this country are illegals. They are putting hospitals out of business in the south because the ER must help anyone no matter what. The costs were too high when they weren't being paid though. They flood our education system with kids that do not know english and then it costs our schools time and money to teach them english, which drags down the other kids in the class. They have no alliegence to the American Flag, which you can find numerous videos of illegals waving it upside down, a sign of disgrace. They flood job markets, forcing people to either lose their jobs, or work for lower wages. They bring their kids here and get on the welfare system, which costs the taxpayers millions and billions of dollars.

You know that on Welfare and medicaid alone the US spent 1.3 trillion or something last year? The SS retirement is also botched as it never should have went into the general fund for our irresponsible corrupt politicians to spend. Now it has a bunch of IOU's in there and we are trillions in debt.

Gosh...I could go on...but educate yourself people!


I would also like to add, for the people thinking that the war is taking too long in rebuilding. Are we out of Germany yet? WW2 must be going on still. Or Japan? Or South Korea?

We have troops everywhere. I don't agree with that, but we do. Our troops are a stabilizing force in many places around the world. We will keep a presence in Iraq for years to come, but not at current levels. Petraeus has said that the time to leave with the majority of our forces is approaching anyways. Putting a time limit only gives hope to our enemies over there. As soon as we packed up, they would strike and Iraq would be in disarray. Get it done right or Vietnam killing fields will happening in 2009.

OGT:
lmao at everyone who is scared about where america is going, if you were that scared you shoulda voted in al gore not Bush, but to say a down to earth person like obama would ruin your country is just rediculous, if you want the next 4 years to be like the last 8, then go and vote in mccain, and odds are he will just make things worse for you all.. if you want things to be somewhat like they were in the 90's, you know when clinton was president, where he was actually making a surplus then vote obama in, because the fact of the matter is that the Democrates are there for the people where the republics are only there for the rich.

To say obama will do a bad job and ruin your country even worse is just sad to hear from americans, your right when you say he lacks experience, but his senate would make up for that with his VP biden, and clinton and the rest of the democrates there to help him.. this post is just sad reading your responses.

It seems to me the rest of the world knows who should be voted in except for the american people.. wheres the ring wing american who is going to say obama is a terrorist? If I was american I would be more prone to let someone like obama try rather then puting lipstick on a pig by voting in mccain.

ME(CK):
OGT, I notice you went through that whole post and didn't mention one policy. Not one that Bush did wrong. Not one. Yet you claim he caused our economic crisis? Please bud...just name some. I have, you haven't.

Obama down to earth? makes me laugh. So you are saying that we should vote on feelings? Not on policy? I can see your using lots of logic there.

I personally feel this election will be a landslide win for McCain. The bradley effect will speak on Nov 4th. The hillary supporters will make their voices heard. The biased MSM will get theirs handed to them and will lose all credibility. I can't wait.

GoS:

i just don't want to go back to iraq but i like going back to training camp once a year and re uniteing with my army buddies and getting food for a month and that stuff. i'm not voteing but i want obama to win.

as a former corporal i can tell you that war is not fun. people get hurt or killed i have some friends who were wounded and have seen people die. i have seen people close to meget hurt. i have been with out food for 1 whole day then eating 2 meals a die for a week. its not fun. its miserable. their isn't alot of entertainment. your pretty much play cards 50 times a day for years. also at times we didn't know who was shooting at us and were to shoot back at. the army scars you and haunts you it is not fun. a vote for mccain is a vote for what i just described for many more people and many years of pain.

any more questions about the army just ask me.

i have been persauded to vote for obama now after reading these posts relizing that as a u.s citezen i have 1 vote every 4 years and im going to use it. also i see now that some of u want obama to win even though u not american so i am voteing for him for all of the people who cannot vote

Me(CK): This is to OGT:
"because the fact of the matter is that the Democrates are there for the people where the republics are only there for the rich. "

Its hard to say how false that is.

If you can name some policies the democrats have put into place that have improved life for the poor, lets hear of them as well. Welfare sure hasn't, neither has social security. You can try to prove they do, but every single policy the democrats put into place hurts the poor and middle classes. Instead Bush gives the middle class tax cuts.

ME(CK):
GoS, and really Obama will not pull out immediately. Its a great campaign slogan that he will, but he won't. When he becomes president (if he does) he will be informed by different intelligence on what is going on around the world. He will then have to drop into reality and use common sense. Common sense is not to repeat Vietnam again which would result in people losing faith in the American word around the world.

I thank you for your service, but why would you want your friends sacrifices to be in vain? The iraqis are taking over the brunt of the fighting and my marine friend said he didn't even encounter hostiles on his last tour over. The time to leave in large numbers will be soon anyways.

I also find it kinda funny that you are voting for the international voice. I wonder if any Roman citizens voted on the voices from Carthage? Or if English ever voted on the voice of the French? Or Japanese on the voice of the Chinese. Vote for the candidate that you think will help America the most. Choosing to vote based on what our enemies want (Hamas endorsing Obama) is foolish. If you really feel yourself that Obama is best, then by all means, but don't do it for the international voice.

Terror:
You wear me out CK. I just can't wade through all that you post, but in the sampling I chose, it is quite evident that you assume that every weakness that Obama has is God's honest truth and every strength is a lie. If you can't make an argument against him, you make an argument against his party.

If you used all the energy to dismantle McCain/Palin, I'm sure you could do an out standing job. I know it is against conservative policy to maintain a positive attitude, but you should try it some time. it's kinda nice.

Like so many conservatives, you have no vision for anything that hasn't been done before. Conservatism has a place when effective strategies still work, but the world changes. It takes a progressive to find new strategies to solve new problems.

My biggest issue at this point is the war. It is bleeding us dry. Do I want all those soldiers to die for naught? No. Builld me a time machine and I would do what I could to keep us out of Iraq. We'd be better off with Sadam Hussein in power doing God knows what to people that, for the most part, are not our concern.

Since you probably don't have a time machine, I will select the lesser of evils. I choose for every soldier who has already died to have done so for naught. This is to safeguard an unknown number of soldiers that are still alive and well. End the war. It was never a winning proposition.

No one is perfect, and believe me, living in North Carolina which is a battleground, I get a mailbox full of crap on Obama. I get stuff for Obama and stuff against Obama. I don't think I ever got anything on the positive attributes of McCain. I guess he doesn't have much to brag about.

John McCain is a negative and mean SOB. Obama is far from perfect, but I can live with his flaws and while he will make mistakes, he is not a stupid man and he will learn very quickly on the job. His growth during this campaign has shown me that.

Obama for president. That is all.

GoS:

they may have died in vain but it's george bush and the republicans who sent our troops to iraq and got them injured. it is the republicans fault that the troops in iraq are being killed and injured. it is george bush's fault for the scars on my legs and side and every time i look at the scars i think of all those people in iraq getting killed because of george bush.

for some reason when i look at the scars i can feel the pain of the thousands of troops that were killed

ME(CK):
Hehe Terror...conservative policy against positive attitude? Against trying things that haven't been tried...such as...socialism? Its been tried. Everything Obama says, has been tried actually. Name some that haven't. The only thing I can think of is his energy policy, which the republicans encompass his anyways.


I notice you didn't mention one policy of Obamas that was good. Figures. Tell me I must do it for McCain and then fail to do it yourself.

I don't like McCain. I have done enough against him on other blogs.

Im actually thinking: would I rather like McCain or Obama?

McCain will slowly bleed us dry and we will continue on to socialism. Each passing election will slowly move left.

Obama will put it on us full thrust and the people will reject him for it. We will have a major conservative movement, much like Reagan brought and we will be more conservative in the end. Remember Jimmy Carter. Remember his policies? Carbon copy of Obama. Notice how they failed us.

I labeled things in my post about McCain that I do not like. Perhaps you could take off your blinders and do some logical thinking.

I also love how you liberals attribute a good campaign to running a country. If that is all it takes, I think my dog could be a better president than Obama. You know...I was a good captain on my hockey team, perhaps I would make a good president? I would bet that my dog would get 40% vote if he ran democrat. The amount of uninformed voters voting democrat astounds me.

I was doing some math the other day. 38% of people do not pay taxes in the form of income. That is a fact and you can look it up. I am willing to bet that 90% of welfare recipients vote democrat. All for taking from me and giving to them for sitting on their lazy asses. Averaging 50% for each democrat and republican. If say 80% of those non-taxpayers vote democrat, and Im willing to be its higher, then that would leave about 30% voting for democrats. Making 60% of the democrat vote people who don't pay taxes. Only looking for the handout.

And we wonder why our country is going bankrupt.

The politicians have begun to find if they just promise free money to the people, they will get elected. The democrats are gaining power by doing so. Our country will go bankrupt as this happens.

ME(CK): To GoS:
"they may have died in vain but it's george bush and the republicans who sent our troops to iraq and got them injured. it is the republicans fault that the troops in iraq are being killed and injured. it is george bush's fault for the scars on my legs and side and every time i look at the scars i think of all those people in iraq getting killed because of george bush."

have you ever stopped to look at the vote to go into Iraq? 77-23 passing through the senate. He did not get us into this war alone. No matter how much MSM has tried to prove otherwise. The senate had the same intel as Bush and voted FOR the bill to pass.

Are all the democrats in the senate idiots? Bush duped them all? I thought you liberals always call him stupid? Did Hillary really vote on the Iraq bill not knowing what it was? How often can they claim ignorance? It gets old that you liberals keep using the same argument, though it has been disproven on many accounts.

You cannot go back in time GoS, as terror pointed out for us. What happened in the past is exactly that, the past and hindsight is 20/20. You have two options.

Vote to finish the war and your friends don't sacrifice in vain, or you can vote to have their sacrifices in vain. Voting for not going into the war in the first place will not remove anything. It will only pave the way for us to set things right later with thousands of more deaths.

I wonder why military enlistments are at an all time high? We have brave men and women who WANT to finish this war. No person is forcing anyone to enlist. Our army is 100% volunteer and I am greatly thankful that we have people in this country willing to sacrifice. Why is the military supporting McCain over Obama? Or Bush over Kerry?

Snarf:
Look at our current deficit. We didn't have that when Clinton was in office. Bush must have been doing something wrong. Oh yeah, cutting taxes and giving away money to raise his popularity above 30% even though we can't afford it. And if a 250k a year business is only netting 20k a year you are not going to get your taxes raised. It is 250k a year NET. If your business is making a 250k+ profit a year you should pay more taxes than some poor schmuck working for minimum wage. And considering all the loop holes and deductions and tax credits available 250k net a year means you are probably pulling down at least twice that or have a really bad accountant.

Palin annoys me to no end. She is everything that is wrong with the Republican party. Even her voice makes my head hurt. Alaska is a completely different world from the lower 48. It makes Texas look liberal. You've sent a guy to the senate for 40 years that was corrupt from day 1 and I really would not be surprised if he gets reelected on Tuesday even after getting convicted of 7 felonies last week.

On top of all of this McCain doesn't deserve to win. He has run such a bad campaign that it's made Kerry's look respectable. He has screwed up so badly that Palin is now trying to pull a Cheney and take over the lead role.


Everyone screaming that the sky is falling can stop worrying though. If the last 8 years has proven anything to me it's that no matter who wins this election we'll all survive.

ME(CK): To Snarf:
Snarf...on spending, yes Bush went over the top...a liberal trait about him that I do not like, but you forget congress sets budgets. Clinton had a very conservative congress. Plus, the no deficit under Clinton is a lie. He hide costs to make it look like we weren't running a deficit. How do you think the total debt went up? Our republican congress was kicked out by conservatives, not by your liberal votes. We kicked them out by not voting for them because they were spending too much.

Did you know that the Bush tax cuts increased the IRS revenue? Bet you didn't. Reagan's tax cuts did as well. Liberals never know those types of things. Instead its all about feeling. You don't like Palin. Oh boy...you don't like someone. I think you should start educating yourself on how things affect the economy, or how government has caused this current crisis with BAD regulations, not NO regulations. Voting on feelings is the stupidest strategy of voting I have ever heard of. That is the reason we are in the mess we are. We vote on feelings and we get stupid politicians for it. Who has the slicker tongue? Who can "connect" with me on a personal level. Its never who has the best policies. Its never HOW they are going to fix it, as long as they say they will fix it.

McCain corrupt? Like Biden with his 30+ years? Please. Then if you want corrupt, lets bring in Obama's group of friends. Thats corrupt. Im not even going to begin to name them, the list is too long. OR how about his illegal campaign contributions from foreigners? Or his failure to list all donors? Or how about the liberal senators that do have felons? What about killer Kennedy? Or cash Jefferson? They actually DID get reelected! Yet you accuse Republicans of being corrupt. Makes me laugh.

Tell me snarf, have you ever owned a business? Have you ever had your house on the line if your business failed? I know my dad had our house on the line when he started his business. Did the poor schmuck put his house on the line? Doubt it. Instead he decided not to go to college and benefit himself. He decided that the government can take care of him. He decided that he was going to be irresponsible and not work hard to get promoted. I made more than minimum wage in my first job. I already make $20 because I work hard to improve myself. Should I have to give that up because some moron won't try? Why succeed? Why try hard at all? You know what ruined the USSR? Everyone got paid the same. No incentive to work harder. Their efficiency dropped because of that. I see that coming with this "redistribution of wealth" crap. Ive already thought about moving out of the US because of our ridiculous tax codes. Ireland looks better than the US right now. Hong Kong looks even better. That is what every business is thinking. If they can get out, they are getting out. It will cost us millions of US jobs. If Im the owner of GM, Im already building a plant in China, or India. Plan ahead for the worst.

Unfortunately for you liberals, your "solutions" have already been tried and failed. All you can offer is a feel good attitude, much like Terror saying conservatives are only negative. See, we live in the real world where real choices have to be made. There are no leprechauns or unicorns. We take facts and stats, analyze them and make a logical decision.

Redistribution of wealth does not work
Socialized healthcare doesn't work
higher taxes slow down an economy
higher tariffs cost us jobs
welfare creates the lower class where they cannot escape
Social security cost the American taxpayers millions and billions

the list goes on about the failed policies the liberals offer. Using stats, not feel.

UPDATE!!!!
continuing on.

OGT:
universal health care doesn't work?

my god CK why bother argueing any policies with you if you can't accept the fact that every human on earth deserves Health care no matter their situation.

all i will say is stay the h*ll outa canada with a mind set like that.

and do you not realize that the war is costing hundreds of thousands a day just to have troops sitting in Iraq? you know what CK, your obviously from a wealthy family and your obviously a republican, and you obviously will not listen to reason as long as your a republican.

Liberals are not bad, infact they do more good for normal blue collard people then your party will ever do.

I honestly am not gonna argue anything with you since I am not american and in the end its not my choice to make, but don't complain when your living in a hut because mccain somehow got voted in.

I see america often, often enough to know that my canadian government does much more for the average person then any republican will ever do.

Its sad too that your country was supposibly founded on freedoms that every human deserves, but I have a feeling the colour of his skin helps you bias against his party and his amazing leadership, obama isn't where he is because hes an idiot or incompetant, infact if you were to look at his biography he had to surpass and many more obsticles then mccain ever had to and alot of the hardships obama endured and overcame were because of his background and where he came from.

Mccain is sooo senile that when asked "if you were in a plane over the pacific and something terrible was to happen, would you be ok with having Palin step up to do your job"

and his answer was something like his "I am not gonna die, why would you even say that?" yea good sh*t CK, real down to earth.

don't you find it even worse that mccain was all against bush and his policies up untill he found out he was running for president? then suddenly hes bushs royal *ss kisser? you don't find that weird? mccain is two faced and a liar, and he has no touch on todays world.

I feel your making a terrible choice just like alot of republicans, at this point in your life you should look at whats better for USA's global influence rather then your parties success which is obviously raining #1 on your list.

you want to talk policies? we can talk policies when mccain is ready to talk policies rather them scream terrorist at a black guy with a muslim background with a name that is sounds like osama.


thats all I have to say, goodluck on voting day.

and god I hope your country makes a good choice for once.

ME(CK):
haha!!! OGT...are you serious!!!

You just rambled on again, without one policy!!!! I cannot believe you actually took the time to write that whole thing in dismissal of my posts, without mentioning anything but rhetoric! And to add to that you called me a racist!!!

So because I disagree with Obama, I am a racist. Touching.

every human deserves healthcare? really? My gosh, no wonder Canada is a suburb of the US.

Then you say I care more about the republicans, than I do America. Im not even sure Im voting for McCain! Im probably going to vote Baldwin actually.

"we can talk policies when mccain is ready to talk policies rather them scream terrorist at a black guy with a muslim background with a name that is sounds like osama."

Can you name a time McCain has done that? Sorry, next.

From a wealthy family? My mom had to make all my clothes until I was in high school! She still works part-time! I am paying myself through college, without help from my parents. Same with my sister. My dad risked everything to start a business about 13 years ago. Because he actually succeeded, we should take money from him?

"infact if you were to look at his biography he had to surpass and many more obsticles then mccain ever had to and alot of the hardships obama endured and overcame were because of his background and where he came from."

Name some. Maybe how he got into Harvard. Can you tell us that story?

"you obviously will not listen to reason as long as your a republican."

what reasoning? I haven't seen any reasoning from any of the posts on the liberal side here. Not one policy. Not one reason to vote FOR Obama, other than he ran a good campaign.

"I see america often, often enough to know that my canadian government does much more for the average person then any republican will ever do."

Name some. Lets hear policies!!!


"Its sad too that your country was supposibly founded on freedoms that every human deserves"

Life, liberty and pursuit of happiness.
Funny I don't see healthcare listed. Nor welfare. Perhaps you could find them for me.

Perhaps you could show us where McCain is a Bush *ss kisser now? Or not?

Again, you liberals cannot refute a single thing that I have said thus far. Not a single thing. Its all about rhetoric with you guys. Are you guys that uneducated in politics and economics? I haven't even had to look anything up yet. That video I added above, I had on a different blog of mine. This isn't even a challenge! Will someone step forward and actually give me something to think about? Terror did the best job when we talked about Abortion on the sanct site. That is a moral argument though and hence will not have a correct answer in the eyes of some. Each and every policy we have discussed here though has a logical choice.

Healthcare cannot be given to all! Maybe I should find the stats of all the people who die waiting for surgery in Canada. Around Europe they are rationing it because it is bankrupting their country. Soon, instead of national healthcare, it will be no healthcare as the countries will be bankrupt and won't be able to help anyone.

With all the smart math people playing this game, I woulda thought some of you would use logic in your arguments instead of feelings. I guess I was wrong.

(Outside the conversation here.  I am getting a bit insulting, but he started to reach too far.  Calling me a racist?  I don't think so.)

OGT:
i never called you a racist, i said your probably bias due to that.

like i said I will talk policies when i hear one single policy from mccain, I've watched all the damn debates where mccain doesn't tell anything about policies, so why should I use my time to search up policies? one policy I heard barrack and bill clinton talk about was universal health care, your full of sh*t if you say all these people in canada die waiting for surgery, hell my mom went for surgery 6 months ago with 0 problems and no wait... in odd instances someone may die, I never said canada's health care system was perfect you misinterperting man, I said every person in your country SHOULD deserve to be able to go to the hospital, or clinic and get seen regardless of having benefits or not, thats a liberty we have in canada, and your country was founded on so much more then 3 f*cking words so stop being a dipsh*t about that.

the fact that you say noone deserves health care is adsurbed, people can do much more healthy then they will ever do sick. do you not see how much sense that makes? the profit that they can make from having a healthy population rather then a bunch of sick, whiney lazy sacks of sh*t because they can't afford to see a doctor about their back issues or whatever it may be?

like just sad that your saying people don't deserve that, I hope to god that you never get a disease like cancer or HIV where your forking out hundreds of thousands of dollars for kemo or meds that help you feel a bit normal.

the benefits out weigh the costs anyday of the week imo..

theres a policy, and theres me disputing its worth.

I am not saying for US to mimic Englands health care system or canada's, whom I must say is not in financial crisis and will never be in financial crisis, infact we have a shortage of doctors in this country, oh and did I add that canada has been making a 12 million surplus with univeral health care untill steven harper and his bush values came into office.

you want numbers goto an accountant, you want an arguement about something then here I am, I can't wait to see how you twist my every sentence this time around.

ME(CK):
Ok, this is the last time I will reply here. Your argument simply takes no stats or analyzing of any kind. I do not want this to get too heated either. Im a bit intense for a non-political site since I do educate myself on many of these issues on a daily basis.

Saying Im biased against a black is not calling me a racist? Thats a new one. *rolls eyes*


I talked policies!!! I did!!! And you cannot refute even one. The only one you have tried is healthcare. So why argue at all if you have nothing? McCain is not here talking policies, or not talking policies. I am here and I am owning this thread.

Healthcare:

First I will show you wait times in Canada:

http://www.cihi.ca/cihiweb/dispPage.jsp?cw_page=media_07mar2006_e

"Waiting to see a specialist

In 2005, 2.8 million Canadian adults said that they had visited a specialist for a new illness or condition. Half reported waiting four weeks or less, but some had much longer or shorter waits. Eighty-eight percent said that their visit took place within three months.

Following a specialist visit, some patients need further care. For example, new data from CIHI on hip and knee replacements tracked waits between the referral to a specialist and surgery for patients in 2005. On average, 30% of the total wait was spent waiting for an initial appointment with the orthopedic surgeon. Another 10% of the time went by before the decision was made to have surgery. The wait for surgery itself, sometimes several months, constituted on average about 60% of the total waiting time. Data reflect submissions from selected orthopedic surgeons in eight provinces."

http://www.statcan.ca/english/freepub/82-575-XIE/82-575-XIE2006002.htm

" Waiting for care remains the number one barrier to access

While most individuals who accessed a specialized service did not experience any difficulties – some did. (Table 2) Approximately 11% of those 15 years of age or older (2.8 million Canadians) visited a medical specialist in 2005 - among them, 19% reported that they faced difficulties accessing care. Approximately 6% (1.6 million) reported that they had non-emergency surgery - among them, 13% reported that they had difficulty accessing care. Similarly, 9% of the population 15 years and older (2.2 million Canadians) accessed selected diagnostic tests – among them, 13% reported difficulties accessing care.

Those who reported difficulties were asked about the types of barriers they faced. As in previous surveys, waiting too long for care was cited as the number one barrier among those who experienced difficulties. (Table 3) Among those who experienced difficulties accessing a specialist consultation, 68% indicated that waiting was the problem followed by 32% who indicated that they had difficulties getting an appointment.

Among those who had difficulties accessing non-emergency surgery, 66% indicated that it was because they had to wait too long. Over one in five individuals reporting difficulties indicated that they experienced difficulties getting an appointment, a rate similar to 2003 results.

Similarly, among those with difficulties accessing diagnostic tests such as an MRI or CT scan, 59% reported that they waited too long to get an appointment and 36% reported that they waited too long to get the test. The results are similar to those reported in 2003."

I will cease on that argument. As why should I over prove it? You haven't shown any stats yourself, only complain about McCain not talking policies. As if he was here.

"and your country was founded on so much more then 3 f*cking words so stop being a dipsh*t about that. "

umm...can you find healthcare in the constitution? Thought so.

"like just sad that your saying people don't deserve that, I hope to god that you never get a disease like cancer or HIV where your forking out hundreds of thousands of dollars for kemo or meds that help you feel a bit normal."

I will have healthcare. I am working hard to improve myself. I won't get HIV due to the choices I am making in my life. I make personal choices that benefit myself, instead of making choices to run myself into the ground. If I get cancer, I will have healthcare. Work hard and you will be rewarded.

"the profit that they can make from having a healthy population rather then a bunch of sick, whiney lazy sacks of sh*t because they can't afford to see a doctor about their back issues or whatever it may be?"

See this is where human nature blows socialism out of the water. If you don't have to work for anything and it is all given to you...what will you do? Not work of course. If you don't work and nothing is given to you...what will you do? Work of course. Again, read up on the USSR collapse. It should help you understanding human nature a bit more. If humans ran like robots, then yes, socialism would work. Unfortunately we do not. Human nature must be taken into account and all forms of "greater good" government, such as socialism and communism, fail to take that into account. Capitalism takes advantage of human nature and that is why the United States is the most wealthy nation on the planet. Rewarding hard work and success is the only way for anyone to succeed and work hard. To deny that is really...insane.

"infact we have a shortage of doctors in this country,"

ever wonder why you have a shortage of doctors? Perhaps the good doctors are coming to America where they can make more money? Competition works wonders my friend. All the best doctors in the world come to America because they can charge whatever price they like! If they charge too high though, they won't get any customers. Do you even have a clinic close to the MAYO clinic up there? Didn't think so. And you never will either, not with national healthcare. So long as our healthcare remains privatized, we will have the best doctors in the world in the United States.

Rationing of Healthcare and financial problems with healthcare:
http://www.frost.com/prod/servlet/cif-econ-insight.pag?docid=77082735

"Germany is heading towards a major healthcare financing reform to trim its healthcare expenditure. The healthcare insurance premium is schedule to increase by 0.5 percent from 2007. The premium hike is expected to generate $6.26 billion for the government. The current reforms are expected to exert additional burden on the employers thus forcing them to cut their workforce and increase unemployment in the long run."

http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/327/7412/414-g

"A few weeks ago, the German government presented a new health reform with the aim of rationalising health care and saving unnecessary costs (2 August, p 250) The reform might temporarily prevent the financial collapse of the health insurance companies, but experts and politicians agree that a major reconstruction of the entire German social security system is also needed. This would prevent a cost explosion in the closely linked areas of health care, special care for sick elderly people, and pension funds, which have to be shouldered by the younger generation. "

http://www.nationalcenter.org/NPA555_Sweden_Health_Care.html

"In the 1990s, Sweden set about reforming its health care system by introducing aspects of privatization. These reforms were limited, however, and the old problems with waiting lists and rising costs had re-emerged by the beginning of this decade."

Seems privatizing it helped a bit.


If you want to talk about how to solve this healthcare costs problem. Reduce frivolous lawsuits. The insurance for doctors, just because of crazy lawsuits, is very high. Lower their insurance costs and they will be able to lower their prices. Make the prosecutor pay for the lawsuit if they lose. It would make the patient rethink a frivolous lawsuit where they only want to scam the doctor.

Do not allow illegals to use the ER room like they do. Only citizens of the United States or those on a traveling visa/passport should have use of taxpayer dollars. I know this would be hard, but this would help solve the crisis as well. Preferably we would just work on getting rid of illegals in this country and we wouldn't have to enact this in any way. It would be nearly impossible to enact this in all reality.

You really gave only rhetoric in your response, yet again. Unless you can use a logical approach on HOW socialised healthcare is better both in accessibility and costs, your argument falls short.

OGT:
CK you don't understand, show me what you want but what I believe I believe, and your right people are greedy and thats just too bad I guess because they still make over 100 dollars an hour here..

our health care will not collaspe like those countries.. regardless vote for whoever not my country..


the only way to not have universal health care is to have companys mandatory health care plans that employees can buy into, thats the only other way.


even then that will not help poor families making minimum wage.


come to canada, I'll break your face and we'll see what you think of our system after that. lol

So, that last line was a poke at fun, not a threat.  I guess he believes what he believes, but IM the one unwilling to listen to reasoning. lol.  Its too bad that he doesn't understand economics in the slightest though.  Ah well, it was a losing battle to begin with.  I won the argument, but he will not concede.  I finally brought out the big guns with proof of universal healthcare failing, so he couldn't refute what I said.  At least he was able to make a joke at the end. hehe

Now, you may be thinking.  AOL poll?  Or, its a selective poll, the people have to choose to vote.  Well, thinking this over, none of that actually matters in this poll.  This poll is only open to people with AOL accounts.  People cannot vote more than once as you must login to vote and unless you have hundreds of AOL accounts, a single person cannot do more than possibly their internet account and AIM account.  That rules out fraud for this poll. 

Sampling selectivity:  Well, unless someone can prove that AOL users are more conservative than the average American, how can anyone possibly put biased as a possible reason?

Selective Poll:  They all are.  To tell a pollster you are for either candidate requires you making a choice.  On this poll, it sits right on their homepage, so I would think the average AOL user would see it.  If anyone has any level of commitment to vote this election, they can easily vote on it without more than 2 mouse clicks...probably one even.  So unless you can claim that Obama supporters are less gungho(yea right) this point is also moot.

Sampling size:  Well, seeing as this one averages over 350,000 a week, I can't imagine anyone arguing this point.

Any other possibilities?  Ill try to think of some more and add them.

Im having trouble finding previous weeks actual voting tallies as it runs off a java looking program and it sends me to the current week poll when I try.  I have found that last week McCain won with 56-44 over Obama at the end and there was 210,000 on day 5 of 7 of the voting.  That means that there was probably about 300,000 voters last week with McCain getting 56% of them. 

This link will be the link to the current poll, which started Oct 31st.  There is already over 40,000 votes at the time of this post. 

http://news.aol.com/political-machine/2008/10/31/aol-straw-poll-oct-31-nov-4/

Myself, I feel McCain is going to win in a landslide.  I could be way off, but I feel he will.  I wonder if this poll is a good sample of the average American?

So, I've been saying all along that liberals have no idea what they are voting for.  Take a gander at this audio piece and tell me that they do know what they are voting for.  His skin color perhaps? 



http://www.bpmdeejays.com/upload/hs_sal_in_Harlem_100108.mp3